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Air Date : 4th May 2019



What do you do when you have a life that's awesome on the surface but you still feel, hollow and unfulfilled? In this episode Sharon Pearson uncovers her raw and real story of where her personal-development journey all began and the steps she took to pull herself out of her hole.




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Elysium ‘Glam’ Nguyen: It’s wonderful we got to do this. You look fabulous by the way


Elysium ‘Glam’ Nguyen: It’s wonderful we got to do this. You look fabulous by the way

Sharon Pearson: Thank you, I appreciate that very much

G: I think we're live. I just saw a thumb somewhere. We’re live!

SP: We are

G: Welcome!

SP: Thank you. Oh my God.

G: So welcome to the Perspectives podcast by Sharon Pearson. This podcast is brought to you by Ultimate You Quest, and if you haven't already. Go ahead and subscribe now on whichever platform you're connecting with us on and share with us your thoughts your feedback what you're loving what you're discovering in the reviews and the comments. My name's Elysium, Sharon and people call me Glam and I'm here with the absolutely amazing Sharon Pierce.

SP: Say your surname, your whole name please for the record

G: Elysium Nguyen. I know it's awful.

SP: It's lovely.

G: And I'm this tragic

SP: Your name almost is Princess it's fabulous.

G: Well I’m here with the absolutely amazing Sharon Pearson

SP: Thank you.

G: And she is an entrepreneur an author is speaker and a total super woman who has been on a journey of discovering that she too can be human and flawed and just fucking fabulous? Are we allowed to swear?

SP: We just did. Let's see what happens. We will.

G: And you've inspired so many other people women and men and you know all the wonderful colours in between and myself to know that and we can all be flawed and fucking fabulous at the same time.

SP: At the same time, it’s a requirement. You can't get rid of one or the other you’re stuck with both.

G: So Sharon it's so wonderful that we finally get to do that.

SP: We do after planning it for a year.

G: For years I know you've had so many people in the community who've been wanting this platform, this opportunity, this community, this way of coming together to share our perspectives.

SP: Yeah

G: Yeah

SP: I'm hoping one day very soon we get to have a member of our community sitting there and we do this as completely unprepared unrehearsed. They asked me a question. It could be coaching mentoring whatever and any of the fields I have a view not necessarily expertise but I'll have a view. I get to bring bring the real to them in the way that seems to delight our close knit communities and really resonates. That's one of my hopes that we get to shake it up. What a podcast looks like? There's not just me interviewing people interviewing people but we get to get really down and in-depth about what it is for the human experience human frailty human strength human triumph human. All of it and get to maybe share some perspectives. Yeah it's picked up on the cameras beautiful shares and perspectives from what I've learned to what I'm experiencing or what I'm coaching around how that human experience can be lightened how they can be more wellbeing how we can experience a better quality of life maybe alleviate some of the drama and the pain we give to ourselves we don't know how to get out of the autumn automatic into living consciously which is obviously what a lot of our movements now about.

G: And it's a wonderful message in your book.

SP: Yeah yeah I've just been reading it we're sitting in if anyone's wondering where we are if you've got the audio I'll describe the scene we have a grand piano that's simply a prop there's nowhere I know what to do with it. Except complain about the dust and we're in the studio because I'm recording ultimate you for the United State or for the world release of the audible and the audio book.

G: Yeah

SP: Yeah.

G: I'm so looking forward to the book coming out. And if you want to get in on it and preorder it it's literally a transformational book. I think John Ashcroft said it was life changing so the link is included in the show notes for you.

You can find that on and the book itself also will be available on

It will all be in the show notes for you. If you didn't quite catch that. We've got a wonderful Ange say out there.

SP: Thank you.

G: Yeah. With her thumbs up, making a note of all of this for you. So I love what you mentioned before around creating that space for a conversation about the human faculties and the human experience and it feels like this less and less forum and places these days where people can be human. And I think that's one of the really wonderful missions behind perspectives and the kind of conversations we can get to have on perspectives

SP: I listen to a lot of podcasts and I am verging on alarmed about how many voices are being shut down or criticized if they don't toe the politically correct and by political weight. I mean the ideology of the times message I was in Sam Harris for example. Jordan Peterson a lot of those guys from the international intellectual dark web and it's interesting. I'm watching them be the pioneers of copping the criticism whilst they go bravely in the direction of their ideas and my ideas different to theirs. They're offering operating on a global level in terms of politics and culture and society and sociology and I love that. Mine's much more personal message. So I really appreciate the frames they create. But what I dig is getting into more of the nitty gritty with the individual and figuring out what what's making that person tick and what's causing them the pain or the drama or the discomfort or the disconnect. And how can what can we do to remove that? And it could be through any number of frames. But he is the thing that I'm finding there's less and less frames that are acceptable. So there's less and less frames that seem to be acceptable that don't get a criticism. So the frame has to have now certain qualities about in certain characteristics for it to pass muster and not get shamed or criticized or the worst found in a basic frame is this one of my favourite frames is to extend good faith to someone. So in philosophy there is a basic frame about good faith that whatever someone's doing even though it looks a little freaky or we could read it badly if we extend to them good faith and assume we didn't understand or there's more to understand or we need to see it a little differently. We will have a meeting of the minds we might not agree but at least we can trust that we're operating from good faith now.

That only works if the other person is also coming from good faith. So and in that space if both are coming from good faith anything is possible. The moment one person in this doesn't come from good faith in the message and the narrative gets manipulated and twisted into something it was never intended to be. And so I want to create a space where good faith is extended to anyone who's part of it that good faith is extended to our listeners good faith is extended to us doing this good faith is extended from our listeners to ask in good faith is it. And if we have that which we have in our community and when I build the business you know it was built on good faith. So the whole business began with me and Joe Pane a few years ago sitting down. It was done a little before that but it really took off and Joe and I hooked up we sat on the veranda knew nothing about business. But we did have a conversation about good faith before we knew it was a thing. And we said well I said if I have your back and you have my back will always be okay. But the moment one of us has our own back and doesn't have the back of the other. That means two people have that person's back and one person's left in the cold. And we've worked on that model as you know because I've had the same chat would I do the same show with everybody who's in the inner circle. Man if we ever look away or blink from good faith if we ever don't fight for the other person's right to express their right to explore the greatness is within them the potentials within them. If we don't fight for their right to misspeak and make mistakes and be klutzy and sound ridiculous if we don't fight for all of that and create a space for those completely safe we don't create space. There's no forum there is no discussion there is no room for bravery there's no room for vulnerability intimacy compassion courage expression learning it's all shut down. So the first rule of all discourse has to be come from good faith.

G: Yes.

SP: And I see it being fought for in some wonderful podcasts I'm listening with connection with I read I'm reading this amazing book right now by Jonathan Haidt and another author [Greg Lukianoff]. We'll put this in the show notes saying the correct authors the coddling of America I'm reading and it's about this lack of extinction of good faith how there is an assumption of worst intent or I'm going to take the worst meaning of what you said. So I can feel victimized

G: and blow it up.

SP: And so I get a of my victimology and I get a short of my role that you're the perpetrator. And as long as you operate in a mould where someone's a victim such as the perpetrator is about power you've lost you've got gotta operate from the place that it's community and his discourse in good faith has to be. It's the fertilizer it's the water the sun it's everything. So that's what I'm shooting for and I can clearly overambitious with this and we could end up dive volume into the ocean. Well that was a bad idea. We're starting out with that parade.That's the flag we're waving

G: Yeah.

SP: This idea of good intent even where we misspeak or go too far because here's the thing. If you don't go too far with an idea you don't know far enough is how many years have I said that to our coaches?

G: Yeah.

SP: Sixteen years I've been saying they say oh I don't know I don't go too far I don't offend the client or I don't want the client to be known lot like me you don't know too far and so you've practiced going too far. So we're going to practice going too far in public. Whole other standard but unless you push the boundaries you don't know what the boundaries are until you hit the idea or the blind spot.

That's contrary to yours. Do you get what I'm saying? If I if I don't if I don't push the idea all the way out to so and say well hang on what about this or all the way out to you didn't see this or all the way out to. You've ignored this. I don't have a good idea. So the idea of a good idea becomes good when it's tested with contrary views. Yes because the country view teaches me to have a better idea or to give it up. So with the frame it becomes about everyone's got to kind of silently agree to that. Everyone's gonna sign up for it for anything public to work anymore. And all I see where I look. Which is why I avoid social media now is people not bringing that frame. Not everyone but there's enough bad intentions in there or not great intentions in there that it means some people don't have it had their backs covered, so that’s the first frame.

G: Yeah.

SP: The next frame I care about deeply is not so the little guy so much. It's the person who gets knocked down who stands with them. And you know it's one of my most dear precious cherished frames. A few months ago one of our students who's quite well known took out took a hammering in social media and I think I was one of the first people to publicly stand beside them. And I do that a lot privately as well sending messages saying if it's not going public hey if this goes public I'm sitting beside you because it is too it is too easy to be there for so long when the going's good. When the winning team's winning the crowds are full everyone's at the stadium but the team's losing suddenly you have fair weather supporters they turn up on a sunny day and the going's good they've got nothing else to do and maybe they'll pull out a win and they're the worst friends to have.

And I don't think any more people have enough true supporters and I want to create a community through this that's extended beyond the community we have where people can know that can be a reality for them that they can make a mistake and people still stand shoulder to shoulder with them.

G: Yeah.

SP: Now it's getting worse because I've noticed also in social media the person who stands with the person who's made the mistake is now getting cut down and then the person who stands with the person who's dead is of the person is now getting a swat. And so it goes as his domino effect of it's not we're not fight we. A lot of people don't seem to be they've forgotten to fight for the good things that make us better and they're fighting to prove and I'm about to get to them.

The just the thing that draws me the most nuts which is virtue signalling this they'd rather signal they're good in 10 how good a good person they are by tearing someone down then by share by showing good intent by sticking by people or by shutting up. What a concept?

G: I love that virtue signalling.

SP: You haven't heard that term?

G: No I’ve never heard that before?

SP: You need to be in my world. So virtue signalling is the latest phenomenon known as social media by latest is not the latest is doxing but the late one of lies virtue signalling where if someone does make some mistake or is accused of making a mistake you which you know of experienced people who then post anonymously or not bad things about them they shouldn't have done it. Someone should get them that's not okay. They are virtue signalling they're not changing anything. They're only sending this person into fits of tears and hurt and because lots of studies show feelings of rejection isolation the same as feelings of death or dying. So all they're doing is causing feelings of death in this person they're not adding any value except to bolster their own self-esteem. In a weird way isn't that weird? If I tear them down I get to show what a good person I am because I've seen the immorality of that even though they don't know the facts. So this environment is going to flip that we are going to make mistakes yes and we are going to expect and look for where people stand beside us and say you make your mistakes in public is kind of how you learn appreciate that you've apologized recognize your mistake didn't know you did it but now we're gone or did agree to disagree it wasn't a mistake. The environment needs to be with good faith and the extension of you're free to make mistakes in that environment because without it no one gets to learn because all I see going on with the virtue signalling and the shaming the doxing and the tearing down is people learning to hide their true views.

G: Yes.

SP: Now I don't know what's more dangerous to you as someone from Vietnam vet from Vietnam. I can’t even say your surname, now I can’t even say your country. As someone from Vietnam who literally saw and you've told me about how no one can express their views and what it created and the environment created in homes and individuals and in communities and in schools you create. Are we really wanting a system where no one gets to speak their truth for the fear of what will happen if it doesn't comply with the ideology of the time?

G: Yeah.

SP: So I'm maybe too ambitious but we're shooting for an environment which is simply extension of the environment we've created The Coaching Institute and the Global Success Institute where you can make a mistake and thousands of people will soon stand shoulder to shoulder with you and saying it's okay we'll figure this out you're not alone.

G: Yeah

Because to not be with someone at the time of trouble means you're not really with them.

G: No.

SP: Yeah.

G: Yeah. And like you said that creates an environment where people aren't truly connecting. They're hiding. They're hiding that they're hiding a mask.

SP: Yeah that's it.

G: One of the models that I love in your book is the concept of the uglies that you know that there is our core self as our truth. And then there's the uglies that you know we feel are has been shamed in us. And then the mask and or the Guardian that we develop. But before we go to that model I wanted to go back and

SP: We'll talk about that model in a podcast.

G: Yeah we'll talk about model in one day at a later episode exist so much to unpack within that there is every these days or we see a people's loss connecting with others other masks as opposed to genuine deep connection

SP: But how do you know when it's okay to take the mask off I'll come? No one gave me their rulebooks wrote the book. No one told me when it was okay to not be all in place and all together and that's something that I.

G: I'm dying to know and I know so many people who are listening to this would be loving to know as well is how did you go about creating that community in the first place?

SP: Taking my mask off. That's it. So I can’t remember when Facebook came about. Yeah I kind of regret Facebook being invented but I kinda I think mostly I regret it but part of me loves how it meant our community could access me and we could come together and it was my first building The Coaching Institute and then the Global Success Institute which became the bigger umbrella was just simply simply not simple a journey to me removing my mask and being as real raw fucked up in public as I was capable and courageous enough to be and they've been limits to that. So the school didn't do as well when I didn't feel courageous enough to be as open as I knew I could be but it was a catch 22 because I didn't have the greatest communities, this is going back many years now so I couldn't have done that because I would've been judged. I can remember moments where I was being raw real fucked in public in our community and I get pinged for it like live in the room. Some would say Are you sure you should be sharing that. Or I thought we'd be talking about this instead and just shot me as I like feedback. I haven't built the community or attracted the people who want this level of real so they're not going to recognize real as vulnerable as valuable and they're therefore not going to seek it for themselves. Therefore they're not going to be as true a coach as they can be because all true results in any type of therapeutic work and transformational work is based on the relationship we have with ourselves and our client. So if they weren't prepared to have a real relationship with me they weren't going to do it with the neighbours in next time they were sure as shit not gonna do it themselves or their client. So that caused a real questioning in me about who we were attracting. This is many users we've been on song for a fucking decade. It's amazing.

G: It's so hard to imagine that

SP: It was, it was a lot like it was a lot and I was getting these. Do you remember this JP, JP’s in the booth. When I come home? I can't believe it. I gave my all I was just out there and I got pinged or criticized or someone wants to quit or someone's making a scene as I what. Where am I going wrong where I know this is truth that helps and serves and helps them rock out people's worlds as coaches and it's not resonating so I had to really look within me and I think 2013 was the turning point? That was the most amazing year ever. Most horrible year ever but the most amazing year ever because that was the year. I literally had people condemning me every single day for 18 months -18 months of bad news and that's when I realized from within the community and outside I have to look to me. That wasn't easy and I would still like to deny that I had to look to me it would be so much easier. Oh my God. If I didn't have told to myself if I you just say it was them and part of it is because they didn't extend good intention. I know that but what did it say about me? What can I bring from what can I take it there's always what's the point of the year? What was the point of those animals if I didn't learn from it? Learn about me so that became the rule. That's when the journey really kicked off seven or eight six seven years ago when I said if this isn't how I love it what is in me that I need to love and here we are still answering that question? But I was just definitive that you is just if it was the me before and the me after I've had many of those moments I think of integrated moments like these six or seven times in my life I've been around twice as long as you so I can say that whatever you do with your youth.

But I learnt that the community is simply a reflection of my vulnerability. So that changed although it didn't change it radically. You were there but our marketing became much more embedded in softer messages. Do you think and it became truth more truth and let no hype you know? All the marketers who wanted us to hype that just they'd gone. Anyone who wants us to oversell which I don’t think we really did but it was a much deeper level of thought in the messaging and we got it right because that was simply an extension of who I am. Your marketing has literally you just paralleled my growth. I can see that. And so as I grew in that area and I'm still going in I'm not saying on there I'm really not. But as I grew in that area we attracted people who resonated with that from the beginning because they got it in the marketing they got it in the conversations they got it. Everywhere they turn every video of me. It's that level of real hopefully I'm being as real as I can be. And you the like that you shouldn't fuckin join which makes it really easy and but they do. They love it and they queuing to join in because of that we now get to be even deeper and more on message with the importance of vulnerability and importance of personal truth the importance of emotional intimacy without apology without self-consciousness without any risk of shame. And that's what this is in the intention of this is to magnify that to people who perhaps haven't joined us or haven't didn't know about us. This is what we're doing every day in the community yes. And we just want to broadcast that and say hey if you're feeling any of these things any of this disconnect we should chat and you probably should sit there and we'll have a chat about it.

G: Yes.

SP: Yes.

G: I love because I feel like we're this beautiful that our community is just this beautiful diamond that just needs you know more people need to know that yeah every day we will go into one of our Facebook group Members of the Coaching Institute or Professional Coach or Ultimate You Quest and they'll be people sharing vulnerabilities and being championed notable sharing mistakes.

And now we have all the time coaches will say I've just ran my first workshop and you know I think I did this part really well. I totally effed up that part.

SP: Yep. I had 3 people, I thought I was going to have 30 of you did it. You did your first. And then they did the second one. This is Guy we're in so soon I feel he started with one person in the audience and now he travels around everywhere around the world delivering to trainings he's won awards for it. But I remember his first post I think I had one person the audience.

G: Yeah.

SP: And it all started from being to share that with us.

G: Yeah.

SP: And then we worked with him.

G: So and know that they're not alone.

SP: Never. No time. And I think that's a big part of it. Glam I think if there was another theme it's what ever we're afraid of. Whatever we feel is holding us back. We hide it. A lot of people hide it because they're ashamed of it but they're not alone. Everyone's doing the same stuff. Everyone's doing the same stuff. Let's just put it right out there right now. Everyone's feeling it. They're just coping with it to different levels and the amount they can cope with it is literally equal to how how little shame they feel around it. So the more shame they feel around it the less they can cope. So I just want to sweep it up the other direction so people can know realize they can't go. They can handle what's happening they are worthy enough they are lovable only when they get rid of the major stressor in their lives which is them linking shame and needing to hide from their feelings and not being out to cope. And the less they have the shame the more they can cope the more they can. And that's a whole journey there's like 12 conversations right. Just a tip is this dial down the thermostat out of the red zone.

G: Yeah.

SP: Into just managing this perfectly in the nuclear blast is it going to happen. That's the goal.

G: And we see that conversation and that growth happening in in real life in the Ultimate You Quest group.

SP: Yeah

G: So cause for anyone who doesn’t know Ultimate You Quest is just this incredible 12 month journey. I'll talk week journey into learning how to do that. How do you kind of peel away the layers and let your truth come out?

SP: And like it.

G: And like it. And not feel shame and I get judged and because we literally we can see you have somebody who would pose at first and they're kind of toes in the water and they

SP: Level 1?

G: Yeah. Week one. The first challenge and they'll say you know I've never done this before. So what do people say that I've never shared this with anyone

SP: And to do it on a Facebook group with thousands of people.

G: Yes.

SP: Amazing.

G: And they'll say I'm scared shitless clicking this and they'll say

SP: I edited it, I edited it for day!

G: Yes.

SP: I didn't post it. I wasn't there another poster.

G: Yes.

SP: And I finally clicked it. And then you just tell this guy staring at the screen wondering what's going to be worrying what's going to be said about them in their post.

G: Yeah. And it's just.

SP: Yeah.

G: And they just love it, within a minute it's OK. You're not alone. Keep going. You're doing great.

SP: You did it. You did your first step out of the shadows Shame Love shadows. You into the light. And so it began.

G: Ultimate You Quest. Absolutely amazing, an incredible journey. So if you love to learn more about what we're just talking about here and maybe connected the group and connect with some of the members and see what it is that what it is that we're talking about the way that we're sharing and I know at least someone others thinking this real.

SP: Yeah

G: That can't actually exist but it does. So the late you need to just go check it out. Even just approved your as our business real and it's possible it's

And I know you run an amazing telecast.

SP: Good on you for knowing all the links – I pulled up and got dressed, that’s my entire involvement in this production! I pulled that off

G: Can I just say you did that extremely well.

SP: I pulled that off. Yes you did everything else but I did that. Thank you.

G: So you love to see more share and more of this conversation and more of her just seeing this happen in real life and see this commune in action it's and there's a wonderful telecast. It's a global telecoms it's got people from all over the world is joining in who's doing this is championing each other who's sharing messages and feeling fear and trepidation as they do it and then for the pulling for many people for the first time in their life realized that the other side sometimes it doesn't it's not always judgement it's always there is a safe place to fall there's a safe place to land yeah

SP: And all of that will be in the show for you as well you.

G: And now Sharon I know we've covered so much on the personal journey

SP: Well that's what I'm dreaming for. I'm shooting for the stars here Glam.

G: Yeah.

SP: Going for the stars with those frames.

G: Yeah

SP: Sharing models within those frames that we can expect that this community brings those frames loves those frames honours each of us within that frame.

G: Yeah.

SP: Then anything's possible.

G: Yeah.

SP: And only in that place is anything possible.

G: Completely.

SP: That's it. That's what it takes a minimum standard.

G: Mm hmm. And what I love about those frames is the fact that it's not only at the individual level.

SP: No.

G: You can see and you've done this you've applied successfully and helped so many businesses and leaders and people to apply it to their team to apply to their professional life to then apply it to a business to then apply it to you on a global scale. A community of people a growing business a massive team. So how does it how does it play out in those arenas badly?

SP: Badly, hit and miss. It is the most exhausting but worthwhile journey on the outside you can have the internal journey so important that's paramount. The external journey that matters is trading for people for ourselves places where these frames are true. Without question they're not questioned. To get people who even see those frames as potential truth hard really tough. You see it at yeah in the business everyday. Not every everyday but people who know these frames who have lived by them then suddenly don't they just drop the standards pretend it never existed it was never that great? And I know what happens. They just walk away from it and they become part of the other. And I find that mystifying. So it is tough to build the businesses I've built and to hold true to those frames every day. Glam I don't fucking feel like it every day. Sometimes I don't want to keep extending good faith in the space of pretty shitty behaviour.

I actually want to be down with them going at shit to me but you just can't man I was saying to JP this morning. I think it was JP this morning on the way in. Yeah I was. It's sixteen years so far. Because people look at the business I have in the success and so are you so lucky. Yeah. Let me talk about luck. Yes I've had luck but it is the consistent every single day of maintaining these frames in the space of not ignorance but indifference and cut and challenge. There are people who reject it who actively reject a message that a frame of good intention for others or frame of a mistake is okay in this space. They reject it they will come after it.

They will act like it's the enemy. And I see this every day.

So I am really fortunate that I've created a bubble world for myself as you know I always created the business to be in “Shazzaland”. So yeah it could be the way I wanted because I got tired of dealing with this. So as much as possible we keep extending the bubble to have these frames. To have it from a leadership perspective is to. I would say much tougher than having on a in personal relationships. Yes because in personal relationships you… When I was working in the business I see everybody all day everyday for longer than I'd ever see my friends. So it's easier with friends. Good intention you can have a conversation about it.

Do you know what I mean yeah. This is stuff that you just talk about. But in business you've got to maintain productivity effectiveness. Paying the salary getting the job done winning this thing called marketing all that's got to happen and maintain the frame in a space of not everybody giving a shit about the frame with enough people either in the business if you've done poorly with hiring or training or recruitment or whatever and plenty outside the business who actually will use that against you.

G: Yes.

SP: To get you and I just find it exhausting. I really do. So I keep trying to make the bubble bigger. Like somehow I'm eventually going to hit a critical mass this tipping point that Gladwell talks about. And you've done that 10000 hours and it's gone. Everyone's going to see it this way and I this idealistic bullshit fantasy in my head is delusion that if enough people heard about it they'd be won over and we'd have a better place on this earth. But it doesn't happen. In fact it's gone the other way and it's getting harder and it's getting worse. This message is a tough sell.

G: It is.

SP: It is a tough sell. It is much easier to sell what's in it for me. How am I going to get me in mine? How do I get you if that helps me? How can I win against you?

G: Yeah

SP: I'm envious of you so I went to me. I'm going to belittle you. That is somehow and an easier sell. So this is a tough sell. I know it's it's way more meaningful way to live but not everybody seeks meaning or they think they are seeking meaning through the other way and they don't recognize what it's costing them. So it's tough. I wouldn't have it any other way. I don't care like you asked me What's it like? It's tough it's exhilarating yes. But I wouldn't have it any other way because how I feel about me and the people in my life and the people who are close to us in the business including you know what what we've created is extraordinary and special and beyond measure rewarding. So it's tough but wouldn't have it any other way.

G: Yes.

SP: So you're from a leadership perspective. Really?

G: Yeah.

SP: Come on. We can do it.

G: We can do this.

SP: People quote If someone leaves it was never for any other reason other than the manager. Oh come on. Oh come on.

G: Yeah.

SP: A hundred percent of times it's on me. No the buck will stop with me. I will hack it day in and day out. The buck will stop with me. I'm down for that. It's what I'm up for. It's why I have what I have. But this idea no one else is contributing to pushing the buck to me please.

G: Yes.

SP: Could we all stop being so naive that we're not a whole system that all of us are playing a role in this shit or the shambles or the wonderful? We are all contributing to it. Yes we may have different roles who may have different dance roles may have different singing parts. Some of us might be just chorus. Some of us might be the lead fucking singer. I should never have got that role. By the way I can't sing but the point is we all played a role in the harmony.

G: Yes.

SP: And if we don't like the sound of the song it's all of us.

G: Yes.

SP: Now I'm happy to be the conductor. But I still need some people singing a fucking note and cheering

G: Yes

SP: Don't I.

G: Yes completely.

SP: And that reciprocity is so important that yes expect that of the leader and the leader can expect that of the team. I expect the team to rise. Because otherwise everyone just gets to be passively watching the leader saying what do you got? Oh I didn't really like how you did that. No I'm not really sure how you did that comes. I'm not feeling that motivated. I thinks about how you spoke with me. What about you? I have to be completely internal locus of control.

I have to be internally completely on regardless of how completely demotivating you are. You're not allowed to affect me either. But the other way around a whisper of a wind and song can be off their game. I'm sorry I'm just not buying it. I think we are creating the unhealthiest expectation on the smallest group of people and asking the least of the biggest group of people. So it’s weird, in Social Media everyone gets a voice and loves it.

G: Yeah

SP: You go into a business. Suddenly no one's got voices it’s all on the ladder. Now come on.

G: Yes.

SP: Come on it can't be that you come into TCI who could run TCI Glam

G: Anyone.

SP: Anyone No one has stopped taking over the business.

G: Yes.

SP: I'm out of it now for. But how many years I have been fighting to hand the keys to someone say run it.

G: Yes

SP: Like, since you've known me.

G: Yes.

SP: It's not a lack of opportunity.

G: Yes.

SP: It’s not a lack of you can be anything you want in this space we created you can have any role and go any way you want. You can rock how even you define rocking.

G: Yes

SP: But apparently it's all on me. Even in an environment where is explicitly said it can be all on you and you can take it as far as you're prepared to take it? You can bring as much courage as much wonder as much energy you'll see as much openness as much passion as much leadership as you want. Still on me. I'm sorry but I just gotta change that conversation.

G: Yeah.

SP: I don't believe it. I simply don't believe it.

G: I think the best the best message encapsulates as we just said leadership and I think it was wireless such a refreshing look because I know for me personally reading that book for the first time as leader I felt like OK so now I've got some tools I'd someone's actually helping me with as a leader. How do I -

SP: oh can I rant?

G: Yeah.

SP: Oh my God. The number of managers I interview managers who want the job. They're ready for the top job. They're ready for the huge pay six figures high six man. I can do it. Tell me how you develop someone you know what they all say to a person. I know this wouldn't be your answer but they will say I just took Yeah. Great. Is it replicable in any way? No it's just a conversation. Okay. Still wanting six figures. Do you use any models that you can teach them? Oh no. They use no models. Do you have a methodology I know like a 90 day plan for developing a leader

G: Like the Critical Alignment Model?

SP: Like the Critical Alignment Model

G: That will be in the show notes, that will definitely be in the show notes.

SP: No. It's nothing. So how do you do? I just it's my personality really. So I'm paying you high six figures for a personality not for anything replicable and none of them ever that I've interviewed have talked about a replicable model that they can hand to their cohorts so they can be brought up with them. Disruptive Leadership and critical alignment model was me dealing with that.

G: Yeah

SP: Because for goodness sake if you don't have this if you've never shown you were taught the alphabet. That's why you can speak and write so beautifully but if you weren’t taught the alphabet. How did you ever?

G: Yeah.

SP: You wanted to be a leader and lead. It's not helpful. Here are the blueprints. This is how you do it. Develop those and you will absolutely know that.

G: Yes completely.

SP: That's just the biggest gamble lately and they keep wondering why they can't measure leadership. I'm reading all these studies right now reading studies is boring but I love to talk about models of leadership Rangers that the leadership is not highly recommended.

G: I think it's that’s what you want. It's just so good.

SP: Thank you. So I read all these studies and have four major theories of leadership and none of them have a methodology. I'm not one of them or how to benchmark it. Know the steps you take now for me when I first picked up research at leadership it was I say this to my team all the time. It's the it's like learning to read The Matrix.

G: Yes it is. Yes.

SP: Yeah. Like that moment in the movie where you just see the code. You say well if you read it long enough it's you see the Matrix.

G: Yeah

SP: And Disruptive Leadership was what that is. So we'll talk about that in a podcast.

G: Yeah

SP: We'll have to talk about that model and some of the other things I do a lot around leadership and profitability. I like talking about that and I talk about helping people build profitable businesses so they can pay everybody lots of money and everyone feels yeah can buy it.

G: And if there's anything because I know I'm the great opportunities that subscribers have on the perspective podcast is you can actually share your ideas and your topics and what you want to hear more of what you want what kind of topics you want to have a discussion around what kind of conversations we have.

So if you haven't already make sure you're subscribing to the podcast on whatever platform you're connecting with us on and comment know join the conversation share your ideas share your rant share what kind of conversations you wants to have. Is it business is it more leadership? Is it the personal growth? Is it their internal journey? Is the external success is it sales marketing?

SP: Do we have an email address guys?

G: Yes. So we will make sure that that's in the show notes for everybody as well.

So the email so you can add a comment below or you can shoot an email through to

SP: Great

G: So with your feedback your ideas.

SP: Please give us feedback reviews.

G: Yeah.

SP: There's lots to help this community grow we have to rate. We have to do that. We need lots of comments interactions and things happening so people can hear the message.

G: More people can be a part of this because as in the other I love you're saying around you know helping build profitable business and you built many, many profitable businesses and you've helped many people build extreme…

SP: I love doing that

G: …powerful businesses one of the concepts I find really interesting and sometimes we get this feedback every now and then is that you know how do you justify meaning and money?

SP: Do you get that?

G: Sometimes we do. That you know people think that if you're doing something meaningful you shouldn't charge for it or you shouldn't get paid for it

SP: That’s a whole. That's a whole coaching session.

G: Yeah.

SP: Now that anyone would have that in them that we would even exist if I hadn't made profit and was willing to continue to take the risks. So many ways to approach that that is a whole episode but I'll just say this anyway.

G: We should note that down there'll be another episode.

SP: But anyone who's tearing someone down for doing well at this skill has their own level of insecurity. So self-esteem is measured one of the ways to measure self-esteem is a lack of empathy and a lack of need to be mean about what someone else cares about. So I care about having a lot of meaning in my life.

I love making lots of money. I love showing other people how to do well. It lights me up. I love writing there's many other things I love. But for someone to critique that or think they should tell me I shouldn't love what I love. That's some measure of their own lack of health with themselves. Rather than saying anything about me because here's the thing we wouldn't be here with the school and the community and the impact we've had if I hadn't cared about those things because I wrote as you know 50 manuals and books so we could if we could exist the only way so we could have people come and study with us. The only way I could have done that was to have made enough money to sit at home writing for years and the anyway that happened is if we charge for it. Others had never been out of. So it had to have gone to do something else and done this as a hobby.

So that kind of thinking is quite circular it reduces everybody to doing everything as a hobby for free, which means nothing great is ever born. So you can't have anything great born out of everything has to be not profit. You just can't because people then still need to pay for school fees paid for. There's a whole list of things that have to be taken care of. Every great adventure has some costs and they're asking us with that and I think it's many people to be much smaller than we are and to play a smaller game so they're comfortable which means they never found us to criticize us in the first place.

G: Yes true.

SP: And that's okay. If that's where they're at. Just the question I'd ask is is that making you happy. Is that giving you a sense of well-being? Do you feel fulfilled by having that view of other people who are doing well in a way that's different to how you perceive doing well? Because that's really the measure of the question. It's not going to touch me I'm going to keep walking on but has it touching you. How was thinking like that serving you? Is it giving you the kind of life you want to have? Or perhaps is there a different way to look at the world where you could see us differently and we could learn something from each other then perhaps something would grow from that. One of my favourite frames is the diminishing or expanding frame, is the idea you have diminishing US or expanding US. Is it making a smaller in your mind or trying to make us smaller to everyone else's mind? Or is it allowing us to be all we can be and allow or you can be and which ever idea achieves that is probably going to be the one that's mentally and emotionally most healthy. Not always sometimes playing a smaller game is appropriate sometimes during my career I've needed to pause and plateau and not expand and not rock out in just. But that was me on my terms and I think you would have done the same thing.

You know what I need to just Danny maybe not even consciously take a breather here. I've been running for a while. I'm going to sleep in on Sunday and I've never done that but just imagine. Imagine the day so every now and again but mostly the expansion is probably going to be the best way to bring us together. The more the ideas expand US and the least they diminish anyone. Probably you're heading in the right direction now. Having said that it doesn't mean we can't pick up an idea and do a bad job of discussing it and they arose afterwards we diminished. We didn't expand it.

Okay. I've learned this is a better approach but until we do both we don't really learn how. So I do trust in the coming episodes I will make that mistake in public.

I will do a conversation that I realize or someone else you realize afterwards. Ah that was diminishing. Got it. Not intentional. Please extend good faith. Yes please allow me to make mistakes in public. I've learned that it could be this instead or I've learnt I have that limiting me. And I'm not ready yet to see the expansion. And that's okay because I'm not perfect. Goodness me Let me count the ways. I love that idea with that kind of thinking is that dashing or expanding there's generally a model for most thinking

G: And I love that about the conversations that you've raised and the ideas you bring is there's always a model. There's always something that make it possible for others to replicate and learn and apply it to their own life.

SP: If we can't frame it it's blind luck that we come across it a second time. We have to be out of frame it up. If we frame it we can recognize it and replicate it. If we can't frame it either with an idea or principle of value or frame if we can't do any of those things with it we kind of blunder into we hope we hit it again or we remember we did it once it just feels like luck. But the replica ability is in the framing and the frame arc right about this. The framing has to be the most emotionally healthy frame possible so it's gotta be free of victimology. No one gets to claim the victim role in the best frames no one gets to claim the role of perpetrator and the best frames. No one gets to claim power in the best frames and doesn't say they can't be the leader. I have every right being the leader of what I'm a leader of because I it's mine I own it I built it off and I'm not interested in communism and I understand neither are you.

G: Yes.

SP: So the frame's going to be the most inclusive but it can have exceptions. So for example a healthy frame is not everyone's included no matter what I am going to exclude white supremacist shock, do you know what I mean?

G: Yes.

SP: But then it becomes well how do you know when you see exclusion and not a diminishing? And that becomes a way more interesting conversation. Am I diminishing someone by that or am I excluding for the mental health of the greater good. At what point is greater good stop and should shrink a little bit to help. Does that make sense?

G: Yeah

SP: And that's why I think this a lot of the mess we're getting to in the world right now with the conversations we're not having we're having badly is there's none of this grey nuanced areas being explored. It's all black and white you either for them or you're against us. Is that black and white dichotomous thinking which to me is very childlike thinking whereas this frame is generally is expanding the with exceptions, I wanted to read the exceptions because they are way more interesting then everyone's included are released you can exclude you going include the white supremacist really all exclude myself so now I'm excluded what do you do now? Because your model of a runs included just broke down because I just got excluded because I won't hang out with the whites and just see what I'm saying.

G: Yeah.

SP: So it can't. Nobody can tell me the group is completely inclusive it's not. There's exceptions. The interesting conversation is when and why.I love that.

G: Yeah

SP: That lights me up.

G: Yes.

SP: They're the dangerous areas.

G: Yes.

SP: Oh I don't know where this is going to figure this out.

G: Yes.

SP: Gotta figure it out.

G: And I love that the conversation here allows room for that for the nuance for the grey.

SP: I hope so.

G: Because. Yeah. Perhaps I with like with social media these days. It's like you're only ever getting soundbites and it's your whole life as well.

SP: Yeah exactly. So everything gets reduced to extremes everything gets reduced to black or white. You know your

G: echo chambers. echo chambers.

SP: Yeah Facebook is the mentally unhealthiest thing has been around so for Twitter. Twitter's up them because they try and do it a hundred thirty six characters or whatever it is I don't even know. But you can't say that many characters and nuance you can't hold contrary ideas in the grey zone in a hundred forty whatever his characters you just can't. So all nuance or subtlety or true intent is gone and it's shredded down to the bare minimum message that you hope picks up enough likes as why I won't go near the place and I don't want know what anyone saying on the place I hear about it through podcasts it's like this is a war zone. There are bodies everywhere. Metaphorically like for goodness sake people stop just stop. But Facebook is the same it creates echo chambers because you get to choose who you follow. And you get fed the message you want to hear.

I'm going to rant like an old person. Your generation and the generations coming after you.

G: Oh we're fucked.

SP: Well yeah. You didn't get general news. You know General you've never experience. The next generation after you got it more. They literally have only ever been fair because you can remember a time prefix but they have only grown up with the messages they want to have. So they're existing these little thought bubbles that are insecure and wrong. Every thought bubble in isolation from everything else has to be wrong because you've got to have slightly permeable boundaries to learn and grow. Nope their bubbles are secure and locked down and then they come along. People who are at a different thought bubble and justice locked down? Oh I can't imagine what could go wrong? What could possibly go wrong in that environment it's fine? We're going to have a whole episode of this but these silos

G: They were like lining episodes everywhere.

SP: It's great. These silos being created and they don't know they've never come across this other silo. Then they meet them at university or in the workplace or wherever. I despair ever hiring. Seriously millennials a great. Remember I used to say. Millennials rock. But you can't exist in a thought bubble and come to a place like us and suddenly be open and embracing different ideas and feel okay with being challenged. You can't be resilient when you've been raised in a bubble. You just can't. The whole point of the bubble is to protect you metaphorically from any virus from anything that could touch you to keep you completely pure and clean. The whole idea of the bubble is to make it so you have no self defense mechanisms from the world and some here in the world and wonder why we're overwhelmed.

G: Yeah

SP: And so that's going to be an entire discussion because I do despair and I really worry about. I really struggle with how to teach resilience.

G: Yeah.

SP: Bloody mindedness grit backbone not a wishbone. Every cliché I find that one of the toughest things to teach because if you don't have resilience you don't see the resilience you don't have. You think people being too demanding of you.

G: Yeah.

SP: So the line is if you have learned resilience people are being too demanding.

G: Yeah.

SP: So you are right about a here it's so hard to get you to feel that people are being too demanding like we can be demanding at this level and your resilience is three times that

G: Yeah

SP: But for other people if I demanded that level I'd be labelled a bully and over demanding and a bitch and too big for my boots all the other things have been said about me.

G: Yeah.

SP: And I'm being brutal. No I'm just actually demanding the level it takes for this business to perform the way I perform.

G: Yes. And the truth is your resilience it just.

SP: And if I only demanded this level our business would be here and we wouldn't be here and we wouldn't have these amazing members in our community and we wouldn't be able to provide this working environment.

G: Yeah

SP: And we wouldn't we wouldn't be able afford to hire you because if we operated the standards you think are only tolerable because your resilience is here. We wouldn't be any bigger than that. Yeah but how do you teach that? How do you help them? How do you teach? So want to do an episode on that is.

The great divide between how demanding someone can be or how demanding the world can be or how demanding your life can be. And you're still okay.

G: Yes

SP: And that's not being taught.

G: No that's just something they become. And then you see that play out in business in leadership and politics in the new generations coming out. You know there are the future leaders.

SP: Can we do a whole episode on this thing about safe zones.

G: yes yes. And there's I think the schools now when boys can't be addressed boys and girls can’t

SP: There's some schools now where you can't say good morning boys and girls.

G: Yeah.

SP: And I think they've just made it law in Tasmania where you can't put the sex of the child on the birth certificate even if you want to. So the parent no longer has the right to do that.

G: Yeah.

SP: By law. That is we've got to talk about how we feel about that. There's definitely one of those nuanced conversations where I can only get backlash. I can only score backlash is the only place that a conversation can go is

G: If you're a part of our community already had you hearing this. You've got to lead the way you guys lead the way.

SP: How do you champion different ideas and how am I allowed to ask the question? Am I allowed to challenge that. Does immediately make me a bigot? Am I immediately excluded from a club somehow. Have I immediately victimized somebody by simply voicing an idea that could be bad? The idea could be bad. But let me take you for a spin and see where I tell you I could end up in the ditch. But I know if we've got good faith I'm allowed to make mistakes people buy out of the ditch and I'll get back on track because the frames will work.

G: Yeah.

SP: So there you go there's a ditch coming moment in our future.

G: And many many great drives to be had and pathways that will lead us to wonderful places. It's quite a mission we're on.

SP: Yeah it is.

G: It's gonna be wonderful.

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